Thinking about this with our daughters (2 & <1), I realized the most prominent man my girls interact with other than myself, the granddads, and occasionally other kids' dads... is our priest. He's a great guy for them to know, but it's a bit funny that their interactions with men are largely in vocations they aren't able to pursue themselves (fatherhood and priesthood respectively).
When our five children were little/younger my hubby's company held Take Your Child to Work Days once a year. Most of the company shut down for at least half a day, and the employees offered a tour of the different areas where they worked. The attendees saw both men and women at work, got to touch things at the labs, manufacturing facilities, etc. so that the idea of mom or dad working isn't just some abstract thing for them. They even had activities geared for kids, bite sized experiences where they got to experiment or play with or try out kid-oriented versions of the actual work being done, including handling raw materials and putting them together to make a finished product. It was cool and unforgettable, and led to them pursuing engineering careers. They no longer do this (don't know why) which is a shame.
Wow, I didn’t realize it was unusual it is how many good men working my kids interact with. Their pediatrician, more than half of their elementary school teachers so far, a catechist, house painter who has worked in our home lots.
The library profession faces a similar problem to the teaching profession in terms of routinely paying extremely low salaries (while requiring master's degrees of professional librarians!). In fact, part of the reason libraries started hiring women back in the late 1800s was because they could be paid less than men. I've had various male colleagues during my decade of library work, but if any of them had underage children, I never heard about it. A number were single. And considering that the pay in the local library system is worse than in the local school system, it's no wonder.
That's what frustrates me whenever a certain sort of person starts going off about how the lack of male elementary school teachers is discrimination against men, etc. If you want men to work in a profession, you've got to pay decently! And school and library finances are built around the assumption that they don't need to do that. When I was studying education for my undergrad degree, everyone seemed well aware that the local schools were DYING to have male elementary teachers. The problem wasn't that the schools were turning men away; the problem was that men weren't going into the field to begin with! If someone wants male teachers, then they need to take some of the time they're spending on yelling about discrimination to yell about improving teacher pay instead.
I'm reminded of a story I read about boys' and girls' schools in Jordan. The girls did very well in their schools, but the boys did terribly despite having all male teachers. Reason? Because women in Jordan had few other employment options, the women who worked in the school were extremely talented. But teaching wasn't considered a good job for men in Jordan, and the men who got the jobs in the boys' school didn't care about their work and tended to mistreat the boys. Teaching has to be seen as a solid career option, or decent men won't be interested.
Thank you for this post! I'm a mom of 4 sons (now ages 17, 20, 22 & 25) - and I have a brother who was an EXCELLENT early childhood teacher who was pushed out in large part due to stereotypes & fear.
One of the most important sentences in the post, in my opinion, is this: "When kids are in school from a very young age, and in wraparound care to stay busy until the end of the grown up work day, they’re fairly siloed off from the adult world and adult work." That's a loss for all of our kids, for all our communities. It's also why Chap. 9 of my book, Building Boys: Raising Great Guys in a World That MIsunderstands Males, is "Connect Him to the Real World."
Perhaps it's growing up and raising children in the Midwest, but I feel like this is not such an issue for us. For instance, my kids play in the local Little League filled with dad coaches who are linemen, factory workers, mechanics, realtors, CEOs of hospitals, and various other professions. We have always seen Family Practice doctors rather than pediatricians, of which 2 out of 3 have been men. (I have preferred the male doctors we've had over the female ones, but I always opt for female pediatric dentists.) Being Catholic also opens up a wide variety of examples. We are family friends with male school Superintendents, teachers, professors, doctors, carpenters, lawyers, priests, a pilot for SW, military veterans, farmers, etc... but we all share in the parish potluck and work on projects together.
The more I reflect on these issues, the more I think it would be better to have a divided society with clearly defined duties for each sex---the women sow and the men reap, the men grind and the women brew. I don't know what that would look like in a post-industrial world, however. We have all become meaningless cogs, and sex has no connection to our activity in the world, except that---because we do not recognize sex as meaningful---women who have periods and pregnancies are thereby defective men. Egalitarianism always means women get the shaft.
Perhaps that is all the more reason to not lean on work as determinative of worth but on parish life! The men serve the altar, the women clean the linens; the women fill the bags of food, the men hand them out. Something like that.
I have nothing descriptive to share because there is no example my girls have of a man who does anything a woman doesn't do first. Alas. Alienation is cruel.
I am lucky in that my children see good men doing good work regularly. I own my own business with my family. My children have basically grown up here. We are oriented towards the trades so my kids see men doing trade work all the time and making a good living doing it and being cool driving big trucks. I am a father of 3 boys. What I have notices though is that when my oldest was a toddler all the new cartoons had female leads or the female was in charge. We had to watch older stuff to find fun boy leads. All there daycare teachers, when they went, were women and all their elementary teachers have been so far. Our main medical person is a nurse practitioner and he is a man. He is older but he is the best. I find my wife and l like him more than the actual doctors. I think his age gives him a bit more wisdom than the younger doctors. The doctors have been a mix of man and woman but more women than men. Both my brothers are white collar workers and my boys love their uncles. Their grandfather works on a farm. Our priest is of course a man.
I am kinda rambling now thinking about the interaction and jobs my children see and the break down between men and women. I don't live in a big city but live on a homestead also. I do wonder if the rural city divide does effect what we see. There are just some jobs my wife is not physically strong enough for her to do on the homestead. I am taller than average and in better physical shape than a man around 40.
All in all this thread really has me thinking and wondering now.
Thinking about this with our daughters (2 & <1), I realized the most prominent man my girls interact with other than myself, the granddads, and occasionally other kids' dads... is our priest. He's a great guy for them to know, but it's a bit funny that their interactions with men are largely in vocations they aren't able to pursue themselves (fatherhood and priesthood respectively).
When our five children were little/younger my hubby's company held Take Your Child to Work Days once a year. Most of the company shut down for at least half a day, and the employees offered a tour of the different areas where they worked. The attendees saw both men and women at work, got to touch things at the labs, manufacturing facilities, etc. so that the idea of mom or dad working isn't just some abstract thing for them. They even had activities geared for kids, bite sized experiences where they got to experiment or play with or try out kid-oriented versions of the actual work being done, including handling raw materials and putting them together to make a finished product. It was cool and unforgettable, and led to them pursuing engineering careers. They no longer do this (don't know why) which is a shame.
Wow, I didn’t realize it was unusual it is how many good men working my kids interact with. Their pediatrician, more than half of their elementary school teachers so far, a catechist, house painter who has worked in our home lots.
The library profession faces a similar problem to the teaching profession in terms of routinely paying extremely low salaries (while requiring master's degrees of professional librarians!). In fact, part of the reason libraries started hiring women back in the late 1800s was because they could be paid less than men. I've had various male colleagues during my decade of library work, but if any of them had underage children, I never heard about it. A number were single. And considering that the pay in the local library system is worse than in the local school system, it's no wonder.
That's what frustrates me whenever a certain sort of person starts going off about how the lack of male elementary school teachers is discrimination against men, etc. If you want men to work in a profession, you've got to pay decently! And school and library finances are built around the assumption that they don't need to do that. When I was studying education for my undergrad degree, everyone seemed well aware that the local schools were DYING to have male elementary teachers. The problem wasn't that the schools were turning men away; the problem was that men weren't going into the field to begin with! If someone wants male teachers, then they need to take some of the time they're spending on yelling about discrimination to yell about improving teacher pay instead.
I'm reminded of a story I read about boys' and girls' schools in Jordan. The girls did very well in their schools, but the boys did terribly despite having all male teachers. Reason? Because women in Jordan had few other employment options, the women who worked in the school were extremely talented. But teaching wasn't considered a good job for men in Jordan, and the men who got the jobs in the boys' school didn't care about their work and tended to mistreat the boys. Teaching has to be seen as a solid career option, or decent men won't be interested.
Thank you for this post! I'm a mom of 4 sons (now ages 17, 20, 22 & 25) - and I have a brother who was an EXCELLENT early childhood teacher who was pushed out in large part due to stereotypes & fear.
One of the most important sentences in the post, in my opinion, is this: "When kids are in school from a very young age, and in wraparound care to stay busy until the end of the grown up work day, they’re fairly siloed off from the adult world and adult work." That's a loss for all of our kids, for all our communities. It's also why Chap. 9 of my book, Building Boys: Raising Great Guys in a World That MIsunderstands Males, is "Connect Him to the Real World."
Perhaps it's growing up and raising children in the Midwest, but I feel like this is not such an issue for us. For instance, my kids play in the local Little League filled with dad coaches who are linemen, factory workers, mechanics, realtors, CEOs of hospitals, and various other professions. We have always seen Family Practice doctors rather than pediatricians, of which 2 out of 3 have been men. (I have preferred the male doctors we've had over the female ones, but I always opt for female pediatric dentists.) Being Catholic also opens up a wide variety of examples. We are family friends with male school Superintendents, teachers, professors, doctors, carpenters, lawyers, priests, a pilot for SW, military veterans, farmers, etc... but we all share in the parish potluck and work on projects together.
The more I reflect on these issues, the more I think it would be better to have a divided society with clearly defined duties for each sex---the women sow and the men reap, the men grind and the women brew. I don't know what that would look like in a post-industrial world, however. We have all become meaningless cogs, and sex has no connection to our activity in the world, except that---because we do not recognize sex as meaningful---women who have periods and pregnancies are thereby defective men. Egalitarianism always means women get the shaft.
Perhaps that is all the more reason to not lean on work as determinative of worth but on parish life! The men serve the altar, the women clean the linens; the women fill the bags of food, the men hand them out. Something like that.
I have nothing descriptive to share because there is no example my girls have of a man who does anything a woman doesn't do first. Alas. Alienation is cruel.
Yeah I am not in the medical field but I am not really sure what the doctors do. They breeze in for 2 minutes charge you a bunch and then leave.
I am lucky in that my children see good men doing good work regularly. I own my own business with my family. My children have basically grown up here. We are oriented towards the trades so my kids see men doing trade work all the time and making a good living doing it and being cool driving big trucks. I am a father of 3 boys. What I have notices though is that when my oldest was a toddler all the new cartoons had female leads or the female was in charge. We had to watch older stuff to find fun boy leads. All there daycare teachers, when they went, were women and all their elementary teachers have been so far. Our main medical person is a nurse practitioner and he is a man. He is older but he is the best. I find my wife and l like him more than the actual doctors. I think his age gives him a bit more wisdom than the younger doctors. The doctors have been a mix of man and woman but more women than men. Both my brothers are white collar workers and my boys love their uncles. Their grandfather works on a farm. Our priest is of course a man.
I am kinda rambling now thinking about the interaction and jobs my children see and the break down between men and women. I don't live in a big city but live on a homestead also. I do wonder if the rural city divide does effect what we see. There are just some jobs my wife is not physically strong enough for her to do on the homestead. I am taller than average and in better physical shape than a man around 40.
All in all this thread really has me thinking and wondering now.